Indigenous Agriculture and Climate Resilience

Continuing with our agriculture theme, this month we are joined by Dr. Michael Kotutwa Johnson (Hopi Tribe of Arizona) who discusses Indigenous agricultural knowledge, traditional farming, Indigenous participation in conservation programs, climate change, and more. USDA Photo by Lance Cheung.

Relevant links:

Johnson, M.K., Rowe, M. , Lien, A.M.& Hoffman-Lopez, L. 2021. Enhancing Integration of Indigenous Agricultural Knowledge into National Resource Conservation Service Cost-Share Initiatives. Journal of Soil and Water Conservation. Online. https://www.jswconline.org/content/76/6/487 

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Transcript

Emile Elias: Welcome to Come Rain or Shine, podcast of the USDA Southwest Climate Hub 

Sarah LeRoy: and the USGS Southwest Climate Adaptation Science Center, or Southwest CASC. I'm Sarah LeRoy, Research Coordinator for the Southwest CASC. 

Emile Elias: And I'm Emile Elias, Director of the Southwest Climate Hub. Here we highlight stories to share the most recent advances in climate science, weather, and climate adaptation and innovative practices to support resilient landscapes and communities.

Sarah LeRoy: We believe that sharing some of the most innovative, forward thinking, and creative climate science and adaptation will strengthen our collective ability to respond to even the most challenging impacts of climate change in one of the hottest and driest regions of the world.

The contents of this podcast are for informational purposes only, and should not be interpreted as endorsement for any of the products, technologies, or strategies discussed. 

Please be advised that the content at timestamp at 29 minutes and 6 seconds makes brief reference to suicide in the agricultural community. To avoid this content, skip the section between 29:06 and 30:05. If you are in a mental health crisis, please reach out to a crisis line by dialing 988 within the US or texting HOME to 741741.

Emile Elias: We're continuing to discuss agriculture this month, this time focusing on Indigenous agricultural knowledge and traditional farming techniques.

Dr. Michael Kotutwa Johnson is a member of the Hopi Tribe in Northern Arizona. He holds a Ph. D. in Natural Resources from the University of Arizona, a Master's of Public Policy from Pepperdine University, and a Bachelor's of Science in Agriculture from Cornell University. Dr. Johnson is a faculty member and assistant specialist with the School of Natural Resources and the Environment and the Indigenous Resilience Center at the University of Arizona.

His newest initiative is the call for the revitalization of the American Indian food system based on the stewardship principles of Indigenous conservation. Most importantly, he continues to practice Hopi Dry Farming, a practice of his people for millennia. Thanks for talking with us today. 

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. Appreciate it. 

Emile Elias: Excellent. So, as I just mentioned, you practice Hopi Dry Farming. Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about that? 

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Well, for me, you know, dry farming is, to put it simply, is to do farming to raise crops without any sort of man made irrigation, which is very difficult to do here in the arid Southwest.

Because when I was at the University of Cornell, they told me I needed 33 inches of annual rainfall a year because that's what the Corn Belt receives. But at Hopi, we only receive 6 to 10 inches of annual precipitation a year. And so, so dry farming is able to raise crop, no man made irrigation on just the limited amount of precipitation.

Emile Elias: And what kinds of crops do particularly well when you're doing dry farming? 

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Well, we raise, we raise basically three or four, which would be gourds. We raise different, about 17 different varieties of corn, about 10 different varieties of beans, about three different varieties of squash. We also raise different types of watermelon.

That's what, that were given to us by the Spanish way back in the, in the 1500s. And so, we also have peach trees there, orchard trees there, and we have all the things out there that you would think would not be possible to grow in this arid environment, yet we do it. 

Emile Elias: Excellent. I'd love to come visit and check it out sometime.

So, are you working on any current or emerging projects related to Hopi Dry Farming that you'd like to tell us about? 

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Well, I'm working with the Rockefeller Foundation. We had applied for a grant, and it looks like the money will come through. But that project basically focuses on four things.

Firstly, it focuses on growing out to traditional varieties of corn, beans, melons, and squash, because we're really lacking the supply right now. It's gonna, it's gonna encompass the 22, or yeah, 22 Pueblo communities. One here in Arizona, the 19 in New Mexico, and also the one in Texas. And so the other part of that will allow us to ensure some of that data is kept safe would be to create a tribal agricultural governance database model, along with doing some nutritional analysis to see what those traditional crops contain so that we're able to find substitutes.

As we grow them out to bring back to the native reservation schools as a way to give back something, but it's not necessarily just in produce crops as a commodity, but it's also ties in culture and all different aspects of human well being to these Pueblo communities who have been farmers, you know, longer than the United States has been here.

And so it's important to remember that. So a lot of this This stuff will bring back recognition and the project will kick off here probably in December of this coming year. 

Emile Elias: Excellent. Congratulations. I'm glad that's moving forward. So you are an author on the Indigenous chapter of the 5th National Climate Assessment or NCA5.

Which is set to be published this fall, and I'm also working on NCA5 on the Southwest chapter, so I know the content of our chapters is embargoed until the publication. We can't talk about it. But I wonder if you can maybe take a step back and tell us a little bit about the link between Indigenous agricultural knowledge and climate and climate change.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Well, you have to understand that, you know, climate change is all about adaptation. You know, and so these varieties that are growing throughout the globe, and they're in 80, now we're, now we're responsible for 80 percent of the world's global biodiversity right now, by the way, Indigenous people are. But it's the, it's that link that's, that's showing you how we adapt, not only as crop varieties, but how we have adapted as people over long periods of time that has to do exactly what climate change is doing right now.

And so that's where the knowledge base comes in because not only the crops, but the people have the knowledge in order to help survive some of the climate factors that are happening right now. And so that's, that's the link right there that I clearly see. 

Sarah LeRoy: Thanks, Michael. And just shifting gears a little bit, you published a paper that's focused on integrating Indigenous agricultural knowledge into USDA Natural Resource Conservation Service, or NRCS, cost share initiatives.

 So, could you tell us about NRCS cost share initiatives and how those can benefit farmers? 

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Well, a cost share initiative is something like what they have, the Environmental Quality Incentives Program or the Conservation Stewardship Program. The latter would help Indigenous communities tremendously, but what that, but what that does is basically it helps, it helps provide funding, upfront funding for those particular programs.

For example, when I was the district conservationist of NRCS at the, on the Hopi Indian Reservation, the federal government would basically have a cost share program, which they would pay for 90 percent of the, of the project, and we'd be responsible as a tribe to pay for the other 10 percent of it. And so that's, that's what a cost share program is.

It's, it's delivering something at cost, and we share the burden of the cost. In order to get the conservation management practices implemented. 

Sarah LeRoy: Okay, great. Thanks. I mentioned Indigenous Agricultural Knowledge. So, could you tell us about Indigenous Agricultural Knowledge, or IAK, and do you have an example of integrating IAK with other systems or knowledge to advance climate adaptation or mitigation?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Well, you know, Indigenous agricultural knowledge is agricultural knowledge that Indigenous people hold. Now, the main difference between our agricultural knowledge and the Western approach to agricultural knowledge is that our knowledge is place based. And it's place based over thousands of years. And so, the techniques that are derived from that, what they call TEK, or what my grandfather simply said is our ways of knowing, you know, are directly, you know, implemented to the environment, the relationship that we have.

So, you know, the new definition that I've defined to redefine regenerative agriculture, which I do have a new definition of that, I just don't have it with me, it incorporates that. You know, it's not so much the techniques and processes, but when you're living in the same place for a long time, you start to have this relationship.

So it's really the culture and belief systems that is responsible for this 80 percent of global biodiversity that we see throughout the globe, that Indigenous people are in control of. And so that's something that we also remember because there's a value attached to that. And some of the values also give us that discipline so they're not, we don't become extractors of what we're trying to raise and to sell those products.

And so that's, that's where it's kind of at at that. But as far as the integration, you know, I think, you know, a lot of it because it's place based, it's not really readily adaptable, but things that that are adaptable are, if you look at some of the practices like the Karuk tribe up there in up in northeastern I think Washington or Oregon, you know, look at their prescribed burning methods of how they do that or look at how the Menominee Forest in Wisconsin or Minnesota or Wisconsin, one of those states, is designed to basically make that forest completely biodiverse because without biodiversity we have no sustainability.

That's the get go. You know that 40 over half of our GDP or gross domestic product is dependent upon natural resources and biodiversity. That's something that we need to hold on to and take care of because that's going to affect a lot of people, right? And so that's kind of the spiel on that one. You know, that's how, that's how I'm integrating some of the stuff that I'm doing right now, is to not necessarily tone the process and techniques, but look at some of the values, the responsibilities we have as a society to live in a condition, but the third world, the people would think is being a very harsh one, but it's very rewarding because we're still here.

And so, you know, it's kind of things like that, so.

Emile Elias: Excellent, thanks. And building on that, in your article, you give some examples or some stories. You talk about dry land farmers, you talk about wild rice harvesters and tribal foresters. And so, I don't know if there's any story or example there that you'd like to expand on a little bit more for our listeners.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Well, you know, I, like I said, you know, we, we don't grow rice in Arizona, and, you know, and we're limited with our forest. We don't really have a forest up in Hopi. And so, like I said, all of it's place based, but, you know, some of the stories that I really capture is, is this, is approaching this type of management system from a community perspective.

You know, for example, it's not the, the buyer who comes in and Menominee Forestry and buys. All the lumber where they're, where they're only going to buy one product. You know, it's the community that makes the decision on what, what kind of trees or whatever they want to sell for that year. For example, if they see a lot of die off on like walnut tree.

They'll go harvest that, and they'll find a market for it, you know, and so, and that's the other thing, and same thing with the rice and then hopi, you know, we, we don't always raise a crop every year, you know, but what we do raise, we try to plant enough to last us three to five years, and so that's important because that also follows the El Niño El Niño cycles.

And so, we're able to do that, but that's, that's this generation of observation, and I think people really have to understand really the meaning and the value of place, and what kind of benefits that can offer to a society such as ours and the rest of the United States.

Emile Elias: So you mentioned you don't plant every year and something, and I'm curious about...

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: No, no, excuse me, we, we, we do plant every year, and so, and that's... But we plant enough in good years like this last year to try to allow us to have enough seed to last us another three to five years to overcome the droughts that we, that we constantly face. We've had 200 year droughts before, you know, we've had these different droughts, but that's where your cultural belief system comes in because over time, your seeds can adapt.

There's no place on this planet that I can see corn seeds being planted a foot and a half and expect to come up within two weeks. Hopi is very rare in that we do it there, because those plants have adapted for 3, 000 years to come up from those depths, use a limited amount of moisture to produce ears that have grain weights and have more nutrient value than anything you could possibly buy, and are more healthy for you than anything you could possibly buy on the store.

And I could make that argument over and over again. So, I just think people should really take a look at that, you know, I mean, today, for example, I gave an ear of corn that I just picked up recently last week and it was still a little wet, but the guy said, man, this is heavy, you know, and so it's, it's, it's, that's all nutrient density in that particular thing.

And it's healthy for you, you know. Things like that. And all that has to do, really has to relate back to climate and how we're adjusting, how we're able to adapt to certain situations. 

Emile Elias: Yeah. I really appreciate that place based perspective and knowledge and how, how that continues over and through generations.

So I'm going to switch back to what Sarah brought up just a minute ago. Which is around the NRCS cost share programs. And your article, you note that when people are applying for those programs, they need to navigate some unique land tenure and ownership issues and also tribal and federal interactions.

So, I wonder if you can talk a bit about these issues and how it might make it harder to apply for some cost share programs. 

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Well, you know, an example would be, a perfect example of what the paper was based on, NRCS contracts on the Hopi Indian Reservation. Usually NRCS programs, and, and I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure I'm right, they're designed for those people who own private property.

They're not designed for, for, for people who hold land in common. Which a majority of Indian people have, and what we manage on the reservation, but not only do you have those traditional lands, like Hopi has like clan lands, they have village lands, and clan land is basically extended family but not biologically related.

You have like trust land, you have allotted land, and each of these type of things within that one small unit of one land base is basically has different jurisdiction on who controls that land. Okay, but when I was at NRCS, for example, when the land's held in common, when I went to go sign one NRCS Environmental Quality Incentives Program contract, I just didn't have to have one signature.

I had to have at least 10 or 12 on some of those, some of those land that's held in common and every single one of those person has to sign off throughout the whole conservation planning process. Now, after a while, that gets harder and harder to do. You know, the money is not just allocated to one farmer, it's divided among 11 of them.

And if what happens if somebody doesn't pay their share, you know, and so it's, it's a mirrored problem. You know, there are solutions to that, for example, having the tribe come in as a signatory and sign the contract themselves. But sometimes the tribes are very reluctant to do that in some cases, because there's a lot of responsibility that goes along with signing these federal contracts.

And so, and to me, it was just a not too good of an outreach effort on NRCS at Hopi. You know, we had, I think it was 10 million of contracts and conservation contracts, but they all went back. They all were closed, and so we didn't, we didn't get anything out of that whole thing right there. And so but those are the kind of the things that you face when you're dealing in Indian country.

But the conservation of the biodiversity is off the charts. You know, we sit on 5. 4 percent of key biodiversities in the whole United States, despite, despite basically living on only two percent of the land in the United States. You know, and so that's a pretty, pretty tremendous figure. So we are doing something right.

You know, we just need to help, you know, we need to help revitalize what we're doing and participate more to help this conservation, help our people, help us. And I think one of the things that I did was go to saying that people, NRCS has a, and their mission is, you know, letting people help the land. But mine is, why not let the land help the people?

Because it's been doing that for the last 3, 000 years, right? And so, you know, we have to look at it from that perspective too. So I'll just leave it at that.

Emile Elias: Great. I have a quick follow up on that, but thanks. That was really helpful. So, is it possible that you might have a group that wants to, to go ahead and go forth with a conservation plan, but one or two people wouldn't sign on, and so the whole thing would fall apart? Is that? 

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Yep, that's possible. I mean, I can give you an example. We had a, we had a, an irrigation project at a lower village in Moenkopi, you know, and that's allotted land. So you can have up to 150 sitting on that have legal title to that, to that, to that 150 or that, or that one acre or whatever they're dividing up.

And so you had some signatories that wanted to go ahead and sign on that, they did, but you had other ones that didn't. And so it did never got completed. So that was a $10 million project that went back to the federal government because they didn't do it right in the first place. And so it would have been done differently if I was in charge then, but it wasn't, so that's what happened.

Sarah LeRoy: Great. Thanks, Michael. So you mentioned that there wasn't necessarily enough outreach on behalf of the NRCS for these cost share programs. And so it seems like, you know, perhaps better outreach would improve expanding American Indian participation in these programs. Do you have other recommendations that could improve participation? 

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Well, I think one of the main things that I would recommend, we have these, NRCS has what they call these technical service providers, but they obviously don't have the staff and they're not, you know, to actually go out and work on these big, big land bases that tribes, at least in Arizona, have.

And, but yet we also have the University of Arizona here, which is a land grant institution, right? We have these agents that come from the University of Arizona called the Federally Recognized Extension Tribal Programs that go out and do serve like, like what I was doing as a district conservationist to some of the reservations here.

So why not use a land grant institution whose responsibility is a lot, not only to the to the non Indian, but the Indian, come out there and be a technical service provider and find ways to have the federal government subsidize their extension program so they're able to hire more FRTEP agents, because the results of those FRTEP agents Produce in Indian communities, in my mind, is off the charts.

And so we need to have a way to bridge that, you know, and then we can do that through technical service providers. I really believe that. And so that's just one method. The other method also is to make sure that anything Indian related when it has to do with conservation is funded. I mean, for example, we have the Indian Agricultural Resource Management Act that was passed in 1993 that provides scholarships, it provides integrative natural resource plans for tribes, but it's never been funded, you know, and then we have, then, then we have language that would help tribes run their own conservation program called Alternative Funding Arrangements.

That is by law in the 2018 Farm Bill supposed to have the NRCS and the language says shall work with tribes, not may anymore, but shall. But yet we only have two alternative funding arrangements or one in the state of Arizona that has 23 tribes or 22 tribes. And so my mind is where's the enforcement, you know, where's their trust responsibility of the federal government when it comes to true conservation, where you're sitting on 5. 4 percent of key biodiversity areas in the United States. And so we have to look at that, but for me, it's a collaborative effort. It's not just the federal government. It's not just the private foundations. It's not just the tribe. It's about getting everybody to work together, which sometimes is, is very puzzling.

But I've proven that enough that I can get people to work together here. And so that's, that's what, that's what it's about for me. It's really about collaboration and letting people understand where the issues are at. 

Sarah LeRoy: Thanks, Michael. I appreciate that, that sentiment around collaboration. And I wanted to talk a little bit about new farming technologies.

Would you be able to talk about mitigating risks to Indigenous farmers that are adopting new technologies? 

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Well, you know, there's, there's two types of agriculture. There's conventional agriculture that you have, you know, in Southern Arizona, that you have, you do have some tribes still growing cotton, alfalfa, and some of the other things.

And then you have the more subsistence agriculture, like at Hopi, which basically the technology is limited. And so you try to find a way that can work together because I think, you know, conventional agriculture, in order to raise these particular commodity crops, uses a lot of what they call soil amenities.

And a lot of water. So you don't know, you have to keep buying those things and the seed from that particular company in order to produce something. And it's based all on, on quality, quantity and efficiency. And so the farmer gets trapped into that. Not only the non Indian, but the Indian farmer who's going to these practices gets done that.

Where in the opposite, you have the subsistence farmer in Ramona Farms up in Gila River is an example of this, where she's not only not only conventional, but also traditional in some of the crops that she raised is very important in, in the fact that, you know, it gives us a model in my mind on how you can do both, you know, and the only reason she's the only reason that she's still raising a lot of those commodity crops, in my mind, is that she has to have the revenue generated to pay for those.

Those temporary beans she raises because it's real expensive to do that on a specialty crop. You know, in my mind, the USDA needs to change their funding formula around from efficiency based on, based on quantity. They also need to look at quality. They need to put the quality up front because that will entice more small subsistence farmers to possibly participate in the future.

But it'll also help those ones who are participating, you know, and there's a number of benefits by doing that. But, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not the President of the United States here, you know, maybe someday, but you know, I, I want to get some positive changes in here to not, to help everybody because, you know, we really need to do that and, and we need to feel more people more collected to the land in a lot of ways than we do right now.

That's, that's over half the problem right there. So, but I have an answer for that one too, but that's that maybe later on. 

Emile Elias: Do you want to go forth and give the answer to that one?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Well, you know, my thing is, you know, when I was a young man, we've always, you know, we're responsible for saying the Pledge Allegiance of the flag.

We were given book supplies to, to, to go be good students, you know, carry rollers home and all that stuff. But why can we not, you know, in America give every student, every head start that comes out on the first day of class a cup, some soil, and a seed, and water, and have that little person plant those things.

From very young, you know, I don't know if you've ever seen a child's face when, when that seed comes up in that little plants out there. There's such a sense of accomplishment, such a sense of almost responsibility that I got to take care of this, you know, I mean, we don't do that. That's a simple fix.

That's a fix that to me is not politicized. It's not based on race. It's based on human well being. So we should really think about that. My God, we, we have enough seeds to feed the whole world. You know, we should be able to put one in every classroom here in the United States, and I'm really going to push that until I pass away because I want to see that happen, you know, that's where it's at.

It's about, it's about helping the younger generation understand what they're doing is important. It is not climate change, you know, caused by things that people don't respect anymore, like cutting down trees and, and, and polluting waters and things like that, you know. Why not reverse that? That's the way to reverse it.

You have to reverse it to the younger generation, you know, so I'm here to help as much as I can with that. 

Sarah LeRoy: So Michael, I might need to have you come up to my daughter's school because she's in fifth grade and her class is planting the three sisters. So corn, squash, and tepary beans. And they just, her teacher just sent a picture the other day of their class in front of their garden and it's really coming up and it looks great.

And they're very excited. So I see the, the sparkle in their eyes, like you mentioned.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Yeah, I think that's the most beautiful thing, you know, I mean, let's, let's look at one more real quick story here. I was across the street over here working at Mansfield. I think it's called Mansfield. I was assigned there to, I've actually volunteered there to work in the science class.

And so Biosphere One or Two sent down seeds to give them a little experiment to, same age, fifth or sixth grades, to mimic what was going on up there, which was a small study looking at a slope, planting some mesquite seeds, and then watering it, and then seeing how it would affect the, how the erosion would affect these little seedlings and stuff.

Anyways, so after about a month, when they planted a bit of it, after about a month, I would come by and say, let's go check out your little experiment there, and after a while, they didn't want to take me out there because the seeds that they planted didn't come up, you know, and it was so sad, and I said, you know what we're going to do?

I'm going to go home, and I'm going to get my kernel of corn, and we're going to come back, and we're going to do a drought experiment. And all those seeds came up, and you know, we watered one, and one just once every once a week and then once like one every like three times or four times a week and just to see what the effect of that was and the ones we watered less did better, you know, because that's Hopi corn that's that's showing the viability and, you know, in some of the things we're doing and so it's that type of thing that I'm talking about so you know the story that you shared Sarah you know with you with your with your child there in the fifth grade, looking at the three sisters and watching it come up.

 It's, it's, it's, to me, it's important because they get to see their results, you know, and they're so integrated with that. And, you know, chances are they won't do that in the 10th grade because we'll be in a whole different track. But, you know, they're doing it now, so why not? Because, you know, in our philosophy, even at Hopi, you know, we know that our children are going to leave, but if you teach them at a young age how to farm and do those things and appreciate it when they get old like me, you know, they come back and they want to plant more, right?

And so that's how it's done.

Emile Elias: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. And you can imagine some of those kids really appreciating that and, and wanting to have their own gardens or continue to grow or even become agricultural scientists and, you know, research things. And I know one piece of the research that you're doing is around nutritional analysis of traditional foods.

And so, I wonder if you can tell us a little bit more about that work and what you're planning to look at as well. 

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Well, I'm planning to look at, you know, at least two or three varieties initially, and I'm also developing, like I said, a data governance base with that to keep that information where it belongs at the beginning.

But I wanted to show people, you know, the value, the nutrient value of why these products were so healthy for a population like Like Octin or T. O. where they have an 88 percent diabetic rate, how those products at one time were keeping them healthy where they didn't have that, you know, the whole preventive maintenance one health type thing.

And so so I just want to look at that to show that, but I'm also want to show that the data, we need to have the data to make that argument. Every. Every USDA program has to, you have to do a nutritional analysis and, and put it up against them to make sure that we get those products in the school.

So we need to do them regardless. But I think it's also, what's also going to be interesting is when I start comparing some of our varieties, how I raise traditionally without irrigation and compare them right to those ones who have used a lot of water, they use a lot of soil amenities. And let's look at the nutrient value, the nutrient density of those, and let's compare them.

You know, let's look at them and show you which one's better for you and see what happens. You know, I might get fired because of that, I don't know. But, you know, I, I certainly would like to do something that's important to show people that there's, there's something else they can eat out there. You know, and I, so I think that's very important.

But that's, that's how, that's where that's going to go. But it's a very slow process, but it's going to go and it's, it's going to be something to read about.

Emile Elias: Excellent. What didn't we ask you that you wish we had?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: One of the stories I'd like to tell again, I think, is, is because, you know, I'm, you're talking about just the physical aspects of this, you know, climate adaption, people adjusting, but we don't really dilly dally too much into the emotional effect that it has.

You know, for example, you know, the crop losses we had during the last farm bill in the in the USDA having to set aside about 15 million to prevent suicide that some of the farmers are going through. See, we don't talk about that. What was the cause of that? See, but at Hopi, you know, that's part of our value systems integrated.

Not, not committing suicide, but exactly when I was a boy, you know, I mean, when I was building my house out there, I was asked to, you know, put seeds in my plaster and put them on the wall as I plastered up there. And I'd asked the elderly gentleman that came down and asked me to do that, why did he ask me to do that?

They're not going to grow. They're not going to germinate. And he says, you know, because when we had these periods of drought and we were, we were having these, you know, these, These thoughts, we wanted to put seeds in the plaster so that we'll always remember we have food in the house. Can you see the psychological thing of that approach?

You know, you may not have it, but knowing that you have it helps you overcome obstacles so that you can go on and survive another day. You know, I think that's one of the most important things that we tend to forget about, so that's, that's where I want to leave it at, at that, and I think, you know, I think it's very important how, you know, how our system actually generates hope, faith, and things like that, that, that scientists, we don't often talk about in ways because I think people are afraid to talk about. 

You know, and so I'm by no means an evangelist, a prophet, you know, I'm just, I'm just, you know, Dr. Hopi Farmer, as they say on my Instagram, and you know, I'm just trying to spread the word in a good way, and let's, let's, let's deal with climate change and environmental challenges together as one society rather than the approaches of silo-ness that we seem to be still doing today.

Sarah LeRoy: That's perfect. And you mentioned the word hope. And so, you know, on all of our episodes, we like to ask the people who join us what gives them hope. And so I want to know, I mean, you've talked a lot today about collaboration and lots of positive, hopeful things, but what, what does give you hope for the future? 

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Well, hope for the future, you know, I, I could play it like this, you know, I mean, the last time I was, I was home, I was, I was going out to see, visit one of my friends in his fields and it was early in the morning, like at six, you know, and I was going down the road and there was a car that was parked in and out popped these little, like, couldn't have been four or five year old kids with these little miniature hoes, you know, going to their field to learn something that, that, that, that's very important to us.

And I think that's the hope that I have, seeing that young generation still doing that. And it doesn't take a whole busload of kids getting off the bus with the little hoes in the overalls. It just takes one or two, you know? Hope does not always come in big packages, right? And so we need to look at what it is and just kind of look at that and be grateful for that.

And so that's, that's where I found my hope and that's, that's something I just wanted to pass on today as a reminder of that. 

Sarah LeRoy: Excellent. What is the one thing that you'd like people to remember from this podcast?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: You know, that's a, that's a loaded question, I think, sometimes, but, you know, I, I just... You know, I think one thing that I, that I would like the people to remember that there is Indigenous people still here, and we're still doing the things basically we've been doing for the last 3, 000 years, you know, in pockets of this, of this place that we call the United States.

And so a lot of that has to do with me and what I do is to bring recognition. to those societies that, that came before, you know, and for the contributions that they've made in the various fields like conservation and astrology and all those other things because we were responsible for coming up with that, you know, and I think for us to be, to be removed off the museum walls, black and white pictures that you often see American Indians portrayed as, the one thing that they recognize is that we are still here and we are still willing to help.

And so I think that's the one thing I leave, leave it at. 

Sarah LeRoy: Okay, well thank you Dr. Hopi Farmer, Michael Kotutwa Johnson. We appreciate you joining us today and yeah, thank you. 

Michael Kotutwa Johnson: Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

Emile Elias: Thanks for listening to Come Rain or Shine, podcast Southwest Climate Hub

Sarah LeRoy: and the USGS Southwest CASC. If you liked this podcast, don't forget to rate or review it and subscribe for more great episodes. A special thanks to our production crew, Skye Aney and Reanna Burnett. If you want more information, have any questions for the speakers, or would like to offer feedback, please reach out to us via our website.